The Art of Sustainable Agency Growth with Bill and Kevin

In this lively episode of FreeDive, Bill takes over hosting duties and welcomes Kevin for his podcast debut! Kevin flips the script, putting Bill on the spot about running an agency with purpose, and diving deep into what it takes to grow responsibly in today’s fast-paced digital landscape. 

Discover how to scale your agency without losing your sanity, your team, or your unique vision! And stay tuned until the end, when Kevin fields questions from the team and puts Bill in the hot seat with rapid-fire challenges like, “Who would you fire?” and “Where’s the office pony you promised us?” 🐴

Whether you’re just starting out or looking to refine your growth tactics, this episode offers a fresh, fun take on mastering the art of sustainable success!

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Chapters

• 0:00 Bill and Kevin Hosting
• 2:56 Growing Over 13 Years
• 6:01 Challenges of Staff Growth
• 11:01 Disappointments with Client Pitch Loss
• 15:14 Successes and Triumphs
• 17:04 Managing Client Expectations
• 21:56 Working Along with In-House Marketing
• 23:40 Planning Financially
• 25:23 Who Would You Fire?
• 26:04 Longest Serious Face
• 26:42 Most Outrageous Expense
• 28:19 Who's Emails Delete Most?
• 29:43 Seapoint Office Pony
• 30:17 Swap Jobs with Anyone at Seapoint
• 31:16 Why Michael Scott?

Transcript

welcome to the free dive podcast we're going to mix things up a little bit this week Kristy is not on the podcast so I know that's going to disappoint everybody including myself but I think we've got a fun conversation ahead of us because we've got Kevin here with us hi Kevin 

thanks Bill I feel a little uh you know you're disappointed that I'm here but that's okay 

not really disappointed I I like your like longtime listener first time caller 

that's exactly what you're getting here because uh I have been listening to to to Kristy for quite a long time and I saw some interviews with you on the podcast and I enjoyed them so I like the one on AI that you did a few months back 

thanks 

yeah I got a I was kind of doing a little bit of a deep dive on that topic at the time so I happened to find it but um how where are you at on that topic right now on the topic of AI 

yeah I think I'm I'm still exploring new stuff coming out um I think everybody in the office knows I've become a big fan of sunno which is a music generator and unfortunately I've made songs for pretty much everybody in the office and so they could all have their own theme songs and also my other friends who also have been like what is Bill doing making me these personalized songs but you know that's been my latest one but yeah so just for background everyone Uh Kevin Burns who's with us is our newest employee at Seapoint and he has been working remotely for for a few months now about since Springtime yeah since Springtime working remote he's an expat out of the country and so this is his first opportunity to get to the office and we've been doing some training and so it seemed like a perfect opportunity to get Kevin on the podcast and we thought with that um format wise we thought Kevin could uh do his best Charlie Rose impersonation he's always wanted to be Charlie Rose pre- cancellation yeah pre- cancellation Charlie Rose not creepy Charlie Rose the nice version that we all knew about before the New York Times article yeah your thoughtful grandfather that's right Charlie Rose yeah and so give Kevin the opportunity to ask questions and do the interview so hand that over to you thank you and what a great way to get to know you and the company that I now get to work with so thank you very much for uh having me in so what I understand is recently you celebrated 13 years uh here at Seapoint yeah and it's grown from one guy y you and now how many how many employees do you have now 

yeah so we're about 20 right now it kind of fluctuates you know as far as projects and then you know turnover but we we're steady right around 20 right now so it's definitely from those early days of being in my kitchen 

so I'd imagine starting off at 1 it doesn't feel very stable in the beginning because it's just one person with trying to balance all kinds of things 

it's not that it didn't feel stable it was just the difference in scope and what you could accomplish so when you're just one person it's really the knowledge you have on a technical level and you know you're more of a consultant you know you can you kind of have to stay in your lane like for me it was uh PPC management and SEO kind of those technical yeah parts of marketing um but there was a lot like I'm I'm not a graphic designer you know I draw stick figures I don't know video production uh I I I don't make the words as nice as other people here make words so you know it was just more like you just limited what you could take on 

so you appreciate having creative having Vanessa having uh bloggers and all these things to help out 

yeah and you think about like Anna-Lynn as the uh creative director like having having someone that who can you know take something Technical and make it beautiful and and make it marketing content you know just you know again like in Vanessa having someone with that experience not just graphic design as an illustrator but like understanding the business um you know anytime you kind of like tack that capability or bring someone new into Seapoint uh with a specific skill set it just it it gets exciting because you're like oh what can we do now 

right you open up new new Pathways 

yeah 

what you can do providing services to these uh to your clients so that's an interesting uh kind of a little side point you bring up being able to do new things for clients is that have you found any uh any stories when it comes to introducing new new new skills that you have in the company to a pre-existing client 

so yeah that has been an interesting one because sometimes we'll have done something for a client for a number of years and we almost forget we're not the type of agency that's quick to like upsell um so it's it's kind of funny like there's been times we've been working with a client maybe like 2 three years and we've been delivering certain services and then all of a sudden the clients's like oh I think I need to hire someone to do X Y and Z like I need to hire someone to be a Content writer and I'm like oh you you know we we do that at Seapoint and they're just like oh you know because it just hasn't come up in conversation so you know that is the funny part about like how can I I always find it exciting like when we get somebody new in the office and they might have a specific skill set to think like oh wow how can we use them on these other projects you know to you know just make our services better 

so you don't want to overmarking I see 

yeah 

that's good um so balancing your life with 20 employees now and it's been about that size for a year or two 

yeah I would say about probably the last year we've been about that level um the last three years have been last three years have been a growth period for us as far as Personnel goes um we were probably around the 10 mark I would say before that um so like in the last three years is kind of ramped to that next level 

and how does it how is it running a a company about that size here in Maine 

it has its challenges um it marketing especially like it's you know has its own challenges where your clients are farther away it's not just running a company like staffing for 20 local people um so clients are farther away personnel is farther away because you can go out and get somebody doesn't have to be in the southern Maine market you know if you can find the right person you know like yourself people are all over the place as far as working environments so you know th those are the advantages of it um but it's it it's it can be a lot to juggle um for me the biggest challenge I think was going from like very very like Hands-On client side with like the technical things like oh how's the how's the Google ads performing as we've gotten bigger my role has become more of how do we keep the agency moving in a direction how do we empower the people that work at Seapoint to do their best work without getting frustrated and yeah 

is there a lot of uh kind of pushpull or stress when it comes to Bringing on new people but also keeping in mind the budget because you have new clients coming in you have the existing budget your monthly is coming in but then you you need to expand on the employees side and it's not like you have this massive surplus in January so let's bring in three new employees all this how do you handle that

yeah that is a difficult to balance because it's it's hard because you don't want to overextend you know if you have extra personnel uh that are not being capitalized um capital you know user capitalization you don't want to bring people on that aren't going to have work and just the cost of the overhead on to the to the business it's just not but then that balance is um making sure you have enough work or the work that's coming in that you're not turning down stuff that's a good fit so I that really is always the hardest balancing part because it's it's like a Chicken and the Egg you know you're not going to get new customers if you can't fulfill their needs um but you don't want to get the personnel if you don't have the customers um I think we've been really fortunate um we've made hires and at the time I've been think I've thought to myself wow I've kind of gone out on a ledge here as far as hiring somebody as far as could I fully utilize them like I know I need their skills I know I need their experience but I don't know if I'm going to be able to utilize them as to the to the value right and then but it just it seems like every time we've hired like that the pro project will come up and work is just accelerated in that regard 

that's awesome yeah because I can imagine that could be a really stressful moment where you bite off something cause you're extremely loyal it seems seems like all the employees here are extremely loyal to you and so the the idea of oh let's try this out and if it doesn't work out we'll just get rid of a couple of people is not the mentality here 

right and that is a hard like I've never had to do a layoff um I think that would be a very difficult scenario to be in and taking it just way too personally uh but that you know that that is the case I think one of the advantages in our field in marketing is less of our work is project based and more of it's retainer based so that does make a little bit easier in the sense that uh there's not a lot of monthly fluctuation in billables uh you tend to know like and you could you could project the year fairly well um what you have based on your current clients we do really well as far as we have minimal churn so I think that's another speaks to what the agent how well the agency does as far as the quality of the work but we very rarely lose a client um and it's usually if they do it's you know they're moving on to some new project themselves the client uh but because of that there's a lot of stability um I don't really fear on a day-to-day basis like Hey we're going to lose we're going to lose these clients and then therefore you know we're going to be scrambling on Business Development um it doesn't make me go out to look for work when there's not a necessity to um and it's not growth just for the sake of growth it's growth for what fits in with us as an agency 

let's take a turn and talk a little bit about uh disappointments uh maybe thinking about clients that you maybe you weren't going after them in the beginning but you got to a point in in trying to pursue them and you were excited this was going to be an amazing connection taking to the next level and it didn't work out do you have any stories about that 

yeah there's there's a few I think you know the the process of pitching a client is always a hard one cuz you're spending a lot of energy you're spending a lot of resources um I know there's been a few times we've flown out to you know meet with a client to do the pitch um you know and in your mind all that time you've spent analyzing their needs to pitch to them uh it helps you get so excited about the project right so you're like oh I I you know we've got invited in on this RFP you know we've done you know gone through all their numbers and gone through and we're building strategies you know that we can present and you know there's other good agencies out there you get it you don't win every every pitch you take so there's times where you go and you know you're so excited you're like oh man I've got this one in the bag and they go with another agency and it's it's a little bit like you kind of fly back to Maine with your well you don't know until you get home but you know you kind of just like when you know when they send you that email saying hey we've got another direction you kind of you know it bums you out a little bit on that yeah 

learning experiences from that did you take something away from it that you were able to put put to use later on 

um I think one of it is one of the things is understanding um you know what really is the intent did you get an RFP because they're just trying to tick a box to say we have to have X amount of agencies come in but we you know basically we're already going to work with our incumbent agency so you know the expense in time of trying to put a presentation together for that but again that's just part of that's the nature of that's the nature of the work you know you you you you go through the steps you know and you might build a brand new long-term relationship and that's that's what you got to do to take that 

yeah I think uh it reminds me of a story I think it was in the 90s Carl Malone basketball fan you basketball fan 

not 

not too much I mean he played for the Utah Jazz and they lost again to Michael Jordan and the Bulls and Scotty Pippen and uh at you know the post game they're having interviews 

I'm glad by the way you gave Scotty Pippen due just in case he listens to the podcast exactly 

yeah exactly 

that's what just in case he's next week 

and so they ask him you know what what did you learn this time from losing and you know Carl Malone had kind of a a country accent he said well I learned it sucks to lose you know 

yeah 

please Google it and watch the the real version and it's funny

 it does suck to lose though 

it sucks to lose 

right I mean it sucks to lose when you lose a um on a pitch it sucks to lose when you lose a client um you know i' I again you lose clients and it it's always to me like like the hardest part because I want to be like oh what could I have done differently or what you know maybe I should have you know changed resources here or done you know or spoken up and sometimes clients just aren't good fits either personality wise but then kind of mentally being like oh I wish I wish I could get these guys back and like and obsessing about what their numbers look like instead of just being like all right well that that was a project we worked on this year and but you know what we've got clients who love us and trust us and you know let's just really double on down on those ones that we're seeing those great results and people who trust our vision for for their and you know it's a it's a lot of trust right like clients are giving us thousands and thousands of dollars to spend in media for them you know they're trusting us to get the strategy right they that's I mean that's that's a huge amount of trust and that's like you know when you when you have that like just to feel like yeah I really want to reward that trust with putting out just some exceptional work 

yeah now let's talk about the opposite end of the spectrum the successes right was there a moment as you're going through these 13 years where you got a client that you just never expected and you were and it was just you were just so excited so high about it 

if you're watching this and you're one of our clients the answer is you 

you are the special one 

you are the special client you know who you are 

right 

um yeah there I mean there are I'm not going to go 

we'll get it out in post

I don't want I don't want to be like I have a favorite child um but yeah know there's there's definitely been clients I've been just like over the moon um either to get or expand services 

I’d imagine it's like when you're a smaller company with certain size clients and you get a particularly large one 

yeah 

that was bigger like catching a fish 

right 

you're happy you caught all the fish 

right and I I think like it's really the tools and the resources they have to work with 

right 

so like there's a huge excitement when you get a larger corporate client that has a lot of resources because there's it just you know there's a lot more you can do a lot more you can test um and and there's brand knowledge behind it as well so the the building blocks are there you know it's a little bit more difficult smaller clients or you know what's always a difficult situation is if you have a client that's coming to you because their performance has been really bad and it's not that the marketing has been bad but the product is not great or the company culture that has caused that product to not be great is not super great and then you realize pretty quickly you know they expect you to use marketing to be this magic you know marketing is marketing is magic right 

what would you say about that with what are the typical client expectations coming in versus the reality of what should be expected 

you know that is all across the board you know and I think that speaks to the professionalism of the client too um you know clients with developed marketing departments or marketing resources that are in internal they have a lot more um measured expectations working with an agency and understanding you know things take time it's not a sprint it's it's a large momentum moving endeavor um sometimes smaller clients with smaller budgets they're the ones that are just like I want to expend as little as possible 

Right 

but I I want to see amazing results and that can be hard to temper that realistically and it can be hard because again the process of bringing on a new client right you've got two three other agencies they're talking to and they're all like oh yeah we're going to we're going to make you rich or we're going to we're just going to you know like and and throw in projected numbers so that's a hard one when you're going into those situations and you're like here's what I think is realistic you know like looking at what your footprint what your text stack is this is where I see you at um again it's it's people who are used to that idea of those of being fed those higher expectations that may not be realistic um then they get in a situation where you know they expect more and but I think that also speaks to churn right so I think a lot of these agencies that overpromise in the pitch then they get the client and the client stays with them six months to a year maybe they sign them on a one-year deal and they never resign after the one year because the expectations were that were given them were so much higher and we get a lot of that like people we pitch or people that come to us I should say and they're very disillusioned because a marketing agency is just promised them the moon and you know and and and when you see what they were promised you're like well that's not reasonable to expect that um but that's what the you know end client thought you know they they they were sold the vision 

yeah let me talk about that other agencies um that do overpromise yeah how do you view them are they just naive are they just hungry are they scammy what do you think's going on with with those 

I think there's like the full spectrum of those things that you yeah there's some that are some that are inexperience a lot of them are hungry especially newer agencies I think the HubSpot ecosystem was a lot like that especially like when you think like four or five years ago it was a lot of like people that were like oh it's easy to get into marketing you can just Hub you know get HubSpot be a HubSpot partner right and HubSpot's going to tell you to do things the HubSpot way and you're just gonna follow it and be a HubSpot evangelist and it will all work out and you know and HubSpot was very optimistic yeah and then so they took that type of like over 

optimisation 

optim 

optimization opt 

no optimization no no that's not right overly 

optimis 

optimistic there's the word words right um took that and ran with it as far as um you know what they promis the clients and then like HubSpot you know then they turn off HubSpot they turn off the agency and you know where I think if it was a little bit more tempered coming in they like they probably retain clients better but you see a lot of those early HubSpot agencies that are all either absorbed or they've moved on to other other things they're all crypto managers now 

oh well that makes sense 

yeah 

yeah so they have these because I I've seen seen agencies that are that way they're very sales forward I mean they're just pushing out 50 you know they'll even tell you you have to make 50 cold calls a day 

right 

to new clients and yeah and they and I think their churn is three or four months 

Right

if they don't sign them for a long-term contract and that to me is just misery 

yeah 

you're you're never attending to a client developing and from what I see here it takes time to to develop make sure you're getting the the numbers are coming in that are correct and then you can slowly dial things in

yeah and that's that measure approach I think is what gets missed you know that idea of like we're just going to throw a bunch of stuff on the wall yeah you know and we're going to do the flashy things oh you know what you should have Tik Tok Tik Tok is every everybody that's going to solve your you know like yeah Tik Tok is not going to make your company successful just cuz you started a Tik Tok account 

right 

you know you like that's like examp you know like that's an oversimplification of it but it's just like sometimes they just throw what is the flashy

 the Silver Bullet 

yeah the Silver Bullet what's in Vogue right now as far as what they see other clients doing I mean other agencies doing and that I think versus like the really fundamentals

yeah that's all the kind of getting into the nitty gritty of the the analytics is that a challenge getting because on a larger company for example they might have a marketing team and and they have their way of managing the that data and they're bringing you or us on as the digital side of it and you have to play in their playground effectively with their data is that a frustration sometimes or how does that go

it can be um sometimes the trouble is getting the appropriate data MH and and again like larger clients there's a lot of um sensitivities about internal data and an external team accessing data points which you know we understand um you know sometimes it's a case of you know we've been brought in but there's internal resources that have very different views of how marketing should be done yeah um so you know there's those sensitivities as well uh sometimes you know it's a case of you know we just want to work with internal marketing teams and not coming across as though we're there to fix things or change things versus really supplementing their efforts um so that can be that can be hard too to convey that as far as the collaborativeness versus that not getting combative with in-house marketing directors or marketing teams 

yeah interesting so 13 years to kind of bring it back to where we started 13 years you've been doing this and that to me that shows that you have a good ability to plan financially because you didn't hit a wall I can imagine there were moments where you were coming up against some Financial stresses is there a certain amount of months that you try to keep in the bank for bad times or how do you how do you handle that side of it 

yeah we so I think that also goes to being conservative both on my personal finances so how much I take out of the company um but also I think that's just being conservative with company expenditures um and that can be a trap right you get bigger you get a lot of software where like there's a lot of you have to examine like am I am I spending like on subscriptions that we don't really need am I you know that side of things you know as far as planning for that I think that's a part of that is not overscaling is really what it comes down to understanding like the Personnel that I have in place for the amount of retainers I have um and that's the situation these these agencies they scale so quickly they bring a lot of workforce and workforce that may not be that experienced all at once or used to working with each other but then they need sales to start turning out or then the sales that side so I think if you take a measured ex um approach to growth um you know maybe you bring on two three clients a year versus that idea of I need 20 clients to come on 

right 

um it gives you the ability to do it in a responsible way 

yeah well thanks Bill 

did Deb come up with any questions 

okay 

yeah why we why don't we go to the rid what what rapid fire questions from around the office 

Rapid Fire questions

all right 

so if you had to fire one person in this office besides present company uh oh well it couldn't be me who would it be no pressure this is coming from Anna-Lynn

you know what if I had to fire one person it would be the property management company in this building 

aw yes okay that's a good answer 

that's a politically correct 

safe answer uh 

here's a fun question what's the longest you've ever held a serious face in a meeting without actually listening 

oh man 

loaded question 

I think I've done an hour I think I've done you know and I'm very I will tell you this I am very good at a head nod to go along with a sentiment of what's going on in the meeting if I'm not actually mentally there 

okay 

yeah I'm very good to be like 

you know I kind of got that feeling a couple times during this podcast but that's exact see 

see you were good though you know yeah 

okay uh what's the most outrageous expense you've approved without reading the fine print asking for a friend I am asking for a friend Anna-Lynn 

that would be a hard that would be a hard question to ask I wonder I wonder what that would be no um you know we've gotten some things like office swag things that been a little bit more expensive than I've anticipated or realized until after I looked at the invoice but 

like thai Lynch today 

yeah or or you know a crate of Yeti cups 

Yeti you know brought to you by Yeti 

this podcast is brought to you by Yeti today 

oh the pointy awards that was pretty pretty frivolous so those who don't know we 

got us a client though 

it got us a client so but we we reenacted the uh Awards the dundy awards from the office and the and we did a red tie event out back um that was that was a little bit on the frivolous side I think next year when we take everybody on a bus to Gettysburg might also be in that realm boo Cru first booze cruise yeah it we're gonna we're just reenacting the office now 

oh I see okay cause I was going to suggest submarine trip to the Titanic but 

yeah Wai for the ra yeah I the rager I thought that's what the basement was 

rer okay we're going to get the next door one and then turn that into a rage room 

okay okay a new question coming in uh what team members emails do you delete the most without reading and I by the way before you I'll let you think about that because I'm just sensing in these questions that are coming in a lot of insecurity fired deleted emails 

everyone's like how have you been so successful everyone lives in fear in the office um probably the person whose emails I delete the most without reading would either be Dan 

oh that's sad that makes me sad 

I know I know I know 

or Courtney Courtney probably believes question yes 

Courtney believes it's her 

Courtney's like I'm just confirming what I already know yeah no you know what I you know what I do delete all the time and that's why Courtney probably asked the question Courtney always sends me meeting in invites and I somehow delete all the meeting invites that Courtney sends me before I accept them and then Courtney just has to go in and she just goes into my calendar and adds like manually like just makes me have the meeting because she knows that I I'm not going to accept it

all right yeah all right so we have a pony question Pony question 

Pony question 

um Anna-Lynn was told that there was a office pony

 little Sebastian

 here's the question how much longer do you think you promise that before people quit 

you know I feel like that holding the carrot out on the pony issue is been what's kept people going for years 

oh so you think it's the opposite it's actually keeping them going it's not driving them away 

right like you know that they're just like maybe if you work a little harder we'll get that pony prove me wrong kids prove me wrong 

I think I know the answer to this one I think the answer is me but the question is if you could swap jobs with anyone in the company for a day who would it be and why because my job's pretty good so far 

I I might say Kristy just so I could be fabulous 

I was going to say it was the purse you want to carry the purse 

no just you know just to be that like sweet and sassy person who rules the office like you know and really is in charge of the office I think that would be a good one um I admire Mark a lot like in in his cl how he handles clients so I mean that would be kind of a fun one um if I'm Tim for the day do I get usage of his boat after hours that that would be good 

I think so yeah I think so 

um I'm I'm gonna go with Kristy I'm gonna go with Kristy on that one 

okay for the purse from what I understood um so you you reference the office a lot 

yes 

um in a previous interview you mentioned Michael Scott is your persona 

unfortunely 

but but I'm going to ask to go a little deeper

 yes 

um why and is there anybody else that you have personality traits that you identify with 

well I I say that because I think like most men of my age would be like Oh I'm Jim you know like I I want to be Jim 

they're fools by the way 

they're fools all right um but then knowing like my propensity to make Awkward moments in the office and and you know what you know what's funny is I was actually thinking about this the other day as the company's gotten bigger and more roles and my especially my interactions with clients can be much more like I'm there to listen to what the team has done I personally haven't done the work I'm just there to you know you know observe and answer questions and be their support for the team but because you don't have that like same like I'm not there to be like your numbers increased by 12% because I did this thing on the ads I feel like sometimes I'm falling into that trap of now just being like the kind of shmoozy cheerleader sometimes and that's when you the Michael Scott comes out because you're just trying to make conversation and when you do you just get into that that awkward you know that kind of awkward like hey everybody and you drop in and yeah and you know like everybody else is like really trying to do hard work and you know talk about the work and I'm just like hey you know 

a distraction 

yeah 

so I got to be careful of that a little bit yeah I I think I could identify with that 

I like Michael Scott's character but I kind of feel like for me he wanted to make people happy and I that about him

 I think that is the underlying my Michael Scott part you know I want people to be afraid of me afraid of how much they love me 

that's it 

yeah 

and I also feel aim ilar in the effort to make people happy and to love us 

yeah 

we're wildly offensive 

that is also true 

but it's so sincere 

who was who was the boss on the office who was the boss on the office for that short period of time um 

oh he had a very unique uh Cadence the way he spoke 

right yeah it's yeah what was it Robert Robert C Califoria 

that's really my ultimate goal and I just eventually want to be Robert California okay you have an inner Persona like a secret person you identify with that you've never told I just answer the phone and I'm like I am the Lizard King you don't even know my real name you you want that level of uh 

it's it's the tone of the voice he had I think that's what it is I'm very sensitive to voice tones 

so Kevin yeah it was fun it was fun this are you firing me yes okay that was it was a good run 

it was a great run I mean day one podcast 

but you know we kind of like to bring in the office fatten you up and feed you and then just before we you know let you go so you you feel like you leave on a 

I appreciate I'm getting a little teary eyed 

we're like we gotta we got to send Kevin out to the farm yeah no um thanks for being on the podcast is this your first time on a podcast 

this is my first time on a podcast yes wow maybe 

I've seen them I've watched 

maybe you're just maybe you're like I'm a white guy with a microphone this just feels so right to me you're going to just go home and start your own your own podcast 

right there was a guy in Germany that did that yeah he felt very empowered with a microphone it didn't end well for him 

don't start growing little mustaches no little mustaches 

um but yeah yeah so 

this went off the rails yeah this is called the Deep dive podcast 

the Deep dive deep 

hey everybody thanks for being here with us on the podcast today thanks to Kevin and his first time on the podcast uh I'm sure we're going to have them again and when we uh can think of more exciting things to talk about yeah we'll see you then 

catch you next 

catch you next time everybody